Note:
The stands section on our faqs page has grown to the extent that it is deserving of its own page.
To return to the main FAQs page, click here or on the menu selection at the top of the page.
General Commentary ...
We continually wrestle with this section. That some listening rooms sit on concrete slabs while others have suspended
floors means that there is no universal solution.
We have witnessed stunningly good reproduction from a stand so wobbly as to raise doubts as to its safety. Generalizing is
simply not possible.
Our main listening room sits on a concrete slab, but we have had success exhibiting in various hotels with suspended
wood-joist floors. These floors were for the most part not so sensitive as to result in records skipping from foot falls.
Our traveling setup has to date been a sandbox sitting on top of a threaded rod type of stand (for portability).
Bear in mind that bouncy floors with foot fall problems will give the turntable owner fits irrespective of the turntable
architecture - suspended or unsuspended.
Our experiences with suspended 'tables on bouncy floors (e.g. Thorens, AR,
Merrill, Linn, and Sota ) have been more problematic than those with unsuspended 'tables. As the suspension is set into
motion by the rocking, it continues to oscillate long after the floor has stopped moving.
Ultimately, shaky floors involve implementing one or more of the following solutions:
- Supporting the floor joists from below (using floor jacks)
- Locating the stand directly over floor joists, and if possible, at a point
near where the joists are anchored to a structural wall.
- Anchoring the stand to the wall in some form - either by bracing the stand against the wall or by
using a wall-mounted shelf. Look at our DIY Section below,
where we document a hybrid wall/floor supported stand.
Turntable leveling
This is most easily accomplished if your shelf has some type of facility for leveling. We can work with you on this solution.
We machine 1/4" x 20 TPI threads into our bases and motor pods which receive the set of 6 aluminum cones we provide.
The cones are used to firmly locate the motor pod for speed stability. The base sits on matching cones so that the belt
tracks at the proper height.
We don't recommend that you use the cones for leveling adjustment. This can be tricky from the perspective of belt tracking, but
you are welcome to try. We'd prefer to work on a leveling shelf solution with you.
Refer to our further comments in the tip toes FAQ.
Shelf Size:
Minimum shelf size is 16"d x 22"w for a 9" arm. A drawing of this layout can be seen
here. If you're starting from scratch, we recommend extending this a bit -
to perhaps 18" x 24". In our DIY section, below, we have a link to sandbox plans, whose dimensions
you can adjust to suit your needs.
Implementations:
To date, we have implemented the following:
A sandbox.
This is by far, the most neutral solution of the three choices in this section.
Whether it has an aluminum top plate or one of wood/MDF, we've found that stiffeners affixed to the
under side help. Key to all of these stiffeners is that they bed into the sand the way a heat sink would.
Air suspension.
We have tried only one highly regarded commercial air suspension device. While it works well, there is no improvement over a sandbox.
This is not to say that it won't help other turntables.
If this concept fascinates you, we suggest you search ebay using "optical isolation tables" as a search term.
Many of them are quite large, but occasionally a domestically "acceptable" size turns up.
Slab maple or alternatively, butcher block.
This tends toward the over-damped side of the spectrum.
If your system tends toward the bright side, you may to prefer this, but we recommend addressing your problems at
their source and not with "band-aids".
A machinist's granite surface plate.
Granite (at least untreated) tends to err on the opposite side of the spectrum from maple - tending toward the bright
side. Again, we recommend fixing any dull sound at its source and not by adding resonances.
Bear in mind that if you use wood or granite as a tuning device, a future system change can send you back to the drawing board.
It is for this reason that we recommend sandboxes - the most neutral solution.
Commercial Products:
The following products are worthy of your consideration. As we learn more, we'll update this list.
In reading these comments, please realize that there is likely no universal solution. Your floor, your system, your tastes, and your
arm/cartridge match will all factor into your solution.
Please follow the link to the bottom of this page to our comments on Kevin Brooks' rickety stands to
regain perspective on this topic.
- Adona Corporation - MDF / Granite composite shelves.
This two-layer shelf is bonded together with an adhesive. One can't always depend on a complimentary relationship of contrasting
materials being successful, but they seem to be on the right track with this product.
One benefit of the Adona shelf is that it can be used with either the MDF side facing up (more restrained sounding), or in the
"standard" implementation with the granite side facing up livelier sounding).
A customer of ours with excellent hearing and a broad range of musical taste happened on these stands and recommends these as a
viable solution for many.
These are the four configurations he's tried - in order of his current preference:
- A 2-layer maple butcher-block laminate (2 cutting boards from Bed, Bath and Beyond screwed together).
- The Adona shelf
- A 3" maple butcher-block
- A 3-layer Baltic Birch laminate with 11 lbs of lead shot in the middle layer
He comments:
"The colorations are different for each platform. I honestly can't say that I prefer one set of flaws over another. The bottom
line for me is that I always seem to return to some version of the Bed Bath and Beyond cutting board. Again, it has obvious colorations,
but somehow I am able to listen through them more easily than the other things I have tried. The BB and B board seems to stay in the
system after I have gone through a bout of trying other alternatives. For instance, it's been in place for at least the past two months."
"So anyway my feelings about the Adona are not that it is a "final" solution but that it is one alternative, one that many people may
find wholly acceptable and need look no further. It is certainly a turnkey solution to the immediate issue of what to put a new table on.
I think it sounds distinctly better than my 3" granite slab for instance. The Adona clearly is not as resonant as the 3" maple or the
Baltic Birch platform."
"Note that I still haven't tried a sandbox and/or aluminum mounting platform."
While he has most recently been gravitating to his 2-layer butcherblock implementation, this is perhaps the first time
that his and our observations about maple have diverged.
This speaks to the absence of a universal solution. Don't let this trouble you too much. Re-read our
rickety stands comments below. It's not a life and death decision, and you will most certainly enjoy any
solution you implement. Have fun with this.
Note that some customization is possible with the Adona shelves, Here are our customer's comments about this:
"He made mine with straight sides rather than the beveled sides shown in the
photo. The 18 x 24 size fits perfectly on my Sound Anchors stand, and
either surface, granite or mdf, can be used as the top side. The granite
looks beautiful but doesn't sound as good as the mdf surface."
It behooves us to evaluate one of these shelves ourselves, and when we do so, we'll update this section accordingly. We will
also contact Adona about additional customized solutions - such as alternate leveling options.
- Bright Star Audio - The first guys to
popularize sandboxes in the commercial market. Big shelves are the norm for them as they've been making shelves for the large
VPI turntables for years.
- HRS - Harmonic Resolution Systems - These folks treat granite (as does Adona) and
reportedly have tamed its nasties.
- Timber Nation. We comment above about maple. Nevertheless this may
suit your taste, and Timbernation has treated our customers well.
- Skylan Manufacturing - The same comments about Timbernation apply here - nice
folks, and if wood brings a smile to your face, then talk with them.
- Ginko Audio - custom acrylic dust covers, isolation shelves
Do it yourself solutions:
Certainly a sandbox can be built by the home constructor. We can commission
John Pappas to build one for you.
Click this link for plans to build your own.
You can adjust these dimensions to suit your needs.
A hybrid, floor/wall-mounted stand: This is a variant arising out of a discussion with Frank Schröder.
It works in situations where you have a bouncy, suspended floor which needs assistance from a more rigid wall - hopefully
a structural wall. If you're lucky, the wall is masonry.
Click this link for a diagram. For this solution, you'll need to find
a welder who can work with square section aluminum tubing.
Sources for 18" x 24" x 3" granite surface plates:
We leave these references for historical interest and don't recommend granite (see above), and especially in light of
the Adona shelf.
-
Grizzly Industrial - search on part #G9654 for this
154 lb. plate. Shipping is extremely reasonable. Total delivered cost is under $100
(continental 48 states). They also carry a steel table to support the plate
(part #G9658). See note, below.
- Enco Tools
- search on model #640-0140 for this 180 lb plate (also selling for about $50).
They also sell stands at a slightly higher price than Grizzly - see
model #640-1010. See note, below.
Note: While the stands offered by Grizzly and Enco will get you running at an attractive price,
their fit and finish runs from very poor (Grizzly) to poor (Enco) - even if your taste runs toward the
industrial look. You will probably find yourself sanding it and either priming/painting it or paying to
have it powder coated. Consider this before ordering.
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What about tip toes?
Contrary to popular "wisdom", tip toes are not mechanical diodes. Tip toes
couple vibrations traveling in both directions. They can be useful in
certain circumstances however, and their positioning can make or break the
sound.
If you think of a vibrating string, its peak vibrational excursion is at
its center, and its minimum excursion is at its ends (the nodes).
A surface like a turntable base or a shelf has complex vibrational behavior - with numerous
peaks and valleys (nodes).
The idea behind locating a tip toe is to connect two vibration nodes
with each other, avoiding connecting two peaks. This will minimize motion (vibration).
As we note above, our tip toe implementation is primarily focused on better fixing the motor pod by
concentrating its weight on 3 points. This is for the overriding reason of speed stability.
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The Strangest Things Can Sound Good ... or ... Everything We Know is Wrong.
Here is the partial text of a post we made on a forum about stand selection.
While the main topic was about maple, the topic of
Kevin Brooks' rickety stand came up. Even
the most extreme members of our tribe needs to call a "time out" occasionally and just
enjoy their tunes. Read the following at your own risk.
I have great respect for Pierre Sprey at Mapleshade. I think he puts out
some very fine products.
Please note in my comments below, that I have never used the massive (and
monolithic) maple slab sold by Mapleshade. I have done quite a bit of
experimentation with maple butcher block, which is likely a different
animal. I think my comments are still instructive however, or at a minimum,
can serve as a data point for further exploration.
In all of our experimentation with platter design, we learned that what you
glue a material together with (or what you glue two different materials
together with) is just as important as the material(s) itself. So, in the
case of the butcher block, I may be hearing the glue as much as the maple.
Having said that, I've never found maple to contribute to my musical
enjoyment. I think that this is not a universal characteristic however, and
suspect that there are system contexts in which maple will work wonders.
You can well imagine that I go through this "turntable shelf dialog" with my
customers on a regular basis. My #1 piece of advice to them (in the context
of a Galibier, of course) is for them to take it very slowly, and to be
prepared to start over.
One particular customer of mine has perhaps the best horn systems I've ever
heard - with a price to match -
Kevin
Brook's Ales-based compression drivers.
Upon first delivering and setting up Kevin's turntable, he was shy of a
turntable stand - having sold it along with his Platine Verdier.
Your jaw would drop at the temporary stand we pressed into service -
fabricated of 2" x 2" oak struts, it was never intended for turntable use,
but rather for prototyping horns. I literally feared for the safety of
anyone passing within 3 feet of it!
It was all we had available.
I have to tell you that the sound in Kevin's system was nothing short of
amazing. Surely, his entire signal chain is world-class, but if there had
been a problem with the stand, it would certainly have proven the philosophy
that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
Would I recommend a wobbly stand for anyone (or for Kevin for that matter)?
Of course not. Like all of us however, Kevin has many priorities to deal
with in both his audio business as well as in his own system setup, and the
sound he's getting out of his rig on that shaky stand is not to be believed.
We all play triage with our system mods by addressing the highest priority
(weakest link) first. The issue of a good stand (whatever that is) continues
to sit below other system priorities for him. Were this my system, I suspect
it might also be the case for me.
I am at a loss to explain this ...
This post isn't about how you can site a Galibier on anything and get
world-class sound, but rather to point out that you sometimes make progress
in the strangest of ways ... and most certainly not in a linear fashion.
Would I be inclined to try maple again? Likely, although I suspect I'd have
the same results in the types of systems I find myself assembling for folks.
Is maple necessarily bad? I don't think so. You need to look at turntable
shelves in the overall context of what frequency range your turntable and
stand are best at filtering out.
In the systems I've tried, I've found maple (butcher block) to have a
mid-bass centered resonance that I find to be annoying. In other systems,
this might be exactly what the doctor ordered.
I tried an interesting experiment - fabricating a 3 layer shelf - two layers
of 1-3/4" butcher block sandwiched around a 1/2" thick piece of aluminum ...
all held together by 50 wood screws (what a chore!).
I expected the stiffening effect of the aluminum to shift the resonant
frequency upward, but the "tap test" was quite surprising, and was and an
indicator of what I heard when I put it into service.
The sonic signature of this stiffened shelf was very similar to that of
maple alone. I was fairly well shocked at how the maple's effects dominated
the stiffening effected by the 1/2" sheet of aluminum.
So, I think we can conclude (at least in the case of butcher block), that
the maple's resonant characteristics tend to dominate everything else.
I don't know how this translates to a monolithic slab, but I suspect that
this is what the good folks at Mapleshade are hearing.
I further suspect that they are using it to good advantage in systems that
benefit from this type of tuning. Is maple a universal solution? Of course
not ... what product is?
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